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11-16-2012 at 11:38 AM
Laurakat81
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Laurakat81 is not online. Last active: 05-18-2013, 4:41 PMGold

DNA frag questions...long

I want to have this test done on DH's sperm sooner rather than later. I've heard a few of you mention it over the last few weeks and I've found a website for a lab that will ship the supplies needed for the test, SCSA. Does anyone know if this is a legit site, should I just do it through my RE or is there any issue with me just ordering the test since that appears to be an option on their website? Obviously I'd forward the results to my RE but it almost seems easier to just take matters into my own hands.

The reason I really want to go ahead and have this test done is because on day 3 we were told we had 6 really good quality embryos but when we got to our ET on Monday we were told that while 3 of them had made it to blasts, they'd all deteriorated in quality significantly. My RE thinks we may have sperm quality problems. DH has had SA's and they've all been fantastic so on one hand I suppose it makes sense that we were never offered this test but on the other I'm really pissed that for three years we've told everything was fine and we've just had bad luck with a couple bad eggs and now we find out that there is one more test we should have had done. Angry

From Dr. Google I've learned (yes, bad idea i know) that if his DNA frag percentage is elevated then we're at a much higher chance of miscarriage, as much as four times greater. I'm not too hopeful that we'll even get a BFP at this point and even more convinced that it will end in yet another miscarriage if we do so instead of putting this test off for 1 or 2 or 3 months down the road I want to go ahead and have it done, get a baseline of sorts and then start turning DH into a pillhead with a million different vitamins and supplements I've read that might help so that maybe, just maybe when we're ready to go at this again, we can have a repeat DNA frag run and if the numbers have improved then we can already be a step ahead and if they haven't...well at least we tried, I guess.

I'm not totally sure what the point of this post is. To vent mostly. But also, I guess, does anyone else have this issue? What treatment options were available? Like I mentioned, I've got a list of vitamins for him to start taking: Vit C, Pycnogenol, L-Carnitine, etc (I've got a list but not with me), but is there anything anyone else would recommend we try?

TIA, Sorry so long!

 

11-16-2012 at 12:01 PM
Sophistiki...
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Sophistikitty is not online. Last active: 05-17-2013, 7:01 PMBronze

We had DH’s DNA fragmentation testing done through our RE.  I am not really familiar with websites that offer it so I can’t offer any insight in that regard.  I guess it really comes down to where and how you are most comfortable having it done.  Hopefully some of the other ladies can offer some advice as which labs they have used or recommend.  You might want to PM Mrs. McIrish.  I think she used the type of website based service you are wondering about.

 

Good luck! 


TTC #1
Dx = AMA/DOR, hypothyroid, submucosal fibroid, adenomyosis, mild MFI
IUI#1-3 = BFN
IVF #1 (EPP Antagonist); 3R, 2M, 1F; 3dt of one 12-cell embryo = BFN
IVF #2 (EPP MDLF); 6R, 4M, 3F; 3dt of 1-7 cell, 1-8 cell & 1-10 cell = BFP; confirmed C/P @ 4w2d
Genetic carrier screening negative (CF, Fragile X, SMA, Tay Sachs)
Karyotyping, autoimmune & thrombophilia panels all normal
IVF#3 (DE); 13R, 12M, 8F; 5dt of two “excellent quality” blasts = BFP
Beta#1 = 203, Beta #2 = 81, Beta #3 = 17; confirmed C/P @ 5w1d
Two frosties left
*PAIF/SAIF welcome*  
11-16-2012 at 12:10 PM
Km672
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Km672 is not online. Last active: 05-16-2013, 8:29 PMNewbie
Hey lady,
So sorry you have to deal with this. We had the test done at SCSA and had no problems with them.
As you can see in my siggy, my husband and I have a long history of failed cycles. I have DOR and we were going to try DE because our last cycle was a major disaster. 7 retrieved, 4 fertilized and all but 1 arrested immediately after fertilization. The last one arrested at 10 cells. I assumed my eggs were the sole issue because even though my husband was azoo, we had previous cycles with very few embies, but they had ALL made it to high quality blasts. Since we had achieved fertilization with ICSI we assumed it was my DOR.
Also, I know most people will tell you it is egg quality that develops the embryo from days 1 to 3 and then the sperm kick in, and this very well may be true but our doctors were not convinced.
My husband's urologist suggested we have the test done and we wish we had a lot sooner. His results were 83 percent fragmentation and we were devastated. Since then we have moved onto DS and wish we had a lot sooner. We are still not convinced that poor egg quality and DOR don't have an impact, but we wouldn't have done 4 IVF cycles with my husbands sperm if we had known this. It is extremely frustrating to say the least and we are still furious we were not informed of this option sooner. I don't know of any supplements or ways to increase it. if the testing comes back less than favorable I would have your husband see a urologist who specializes in male fertility and go from there.
Wishing you all the best. Let me know if you have any questions.

Me (31) DOR/ MH (34) azoo/high DFI TTC#1 since 2009 IVF #1 cancelled dt poor response/ IVF #2 & #3: BFFN/ Natural Surprise BFP, early m/c -endometrial bx & methotrexate administered/ IVF#4:nothing to transfer/ DS IUI#1 BFN/ DS IUI#2 BFN/ IVF#5 (1st w/ DS):another BFFN/ Currently planning on DE and DS cycle Summer 2013. This has to be it- 
11-16-2012 at 12:11 PM
Edwina.McD...
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Edwina.McDunnough is not online. Last active: 05-18-2013, 10:05 AMGold
We did this test through our RE with SCSADiagnostics. We had a SA so we knew the sample would be adequate, and the interpretation would include our RE's opinion. We had no indication of sperm issues but we did this test for information/peace of mind moving forward with future cycles, including DE cycles. This is a controversial test for a variety of reasons and it's been discussed at length in the FAQ if you have not read those posts. There are also more in-depth testing (FISH) than the basic DFI. Good luck.

+++ 
11-16-2012 at 12:17 PM
hootie123
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That website is legit - but you might want to talk to your RE about it as well.    We've actually never done it (but we are doing it now) - mostly because it doesn't really change the course of action from what they were already doing - IVF w/ICSI. 

We've had the same problem - beautiful 8 cell day 3 embryos and never any frosties.  So both REs that I saw pointed their fingers at the sperm as the culprit (although my second RE always caveated it by saying it could also still be the egg).  So our last cycle we did a true experiment to find out the cause of our issues - we split my eggs half with my husbands and half with donor sperm.  And wouldn't you know - it wasn't the sperm.  The embryos with my husbands sperm on day 5 were actually somewhat better than the (proven) donor.  But they were still crappy and didn't work.   So that is my longwinded way of answering your question about what could be the problem.  For us - we had MFI to begin with so I think it was easier for my RE to point to the problem as the sperm.    GL with what you decide, none of this is easy.     

p.s. we tried the expensive vitamins as well - and that didn't help either (probably b/c it was my eggs all along!).   





TTC #1 since 6/09
Dx: PCOS and MFI
3 IUIs, 4 IVFs = BFFN
IVF #5/FET = ??
P/SAIFW 
 
11-16-2012 at 12:37 PM
Mrs.McIris...
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Mrs.McIrish is not online. Last active: 05-18-2013, 4:09 PMGold

We just shipped off DH's sperm off to the lab yesterday. I intended to use SCSA but then the urologist that initially did DH's SA said to call Reprosource.  I was able to get an order from from my RE for them so that is what we did. Not sure if there is a big  difference between SCSA and Reprosource. Both are testing the DNA frag so I went with it. 

For us, we are doing it to decide if we are pulling the pull or doing one final DE cycle. DH's SAs have always been very good so it was never suggested to us either. I have no doubt that my eggs are crap but I was blindsided that we did not get a single good blast out of 7 donor eggs. I have concerns that the clinic messed up the donor cycle(donor ended up hospitalized with severe OHSS and other factors I won't get into). If the frag comes back high, we aren't going to risk the money for another DE cycle. I have heard that vitamins worked for some and not others. ICSI does not fix the problem so I disagree about why some REs don't bother with the test as it doesn't change course of action(ie just IcSI).  For us, it will be what we base our decision on for stopping(DH is not open to donor sperm) 



TTC #1 since 8/1/10; Me:39 and BRCA1+, DH:45
DOR (FSH 24.3)/ terrible egg quality
5 IUI's: 2/11 to 6/11 and 1/12= BFN
OE IVF#1-4 8/11-6/12= all BFN
DE IVF#5 11/12 bad embryos= BFFN
FINAL DE IVF #6 1/13: cancelled as second donor backed out during stims
Was added last minute as 3rd recipient to new donor on 1/18; ET1/23/13
2/1/13 BFP for the first time ever; Beta hell for several weeks: miscarriage 7 wks
CFNBC ...Me &You, Just Us Two...
GradyPhotobucket
Riley
RIP Riley 1/4/12
PAIF/SAIF Welcome  
11-16-2012 at 1:25 PM
lincoln79
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lincoln79 is online. Last active: 05-18-2013, 5:34 PMBronze

i don't really know about the website, but if you are interested i can look when we get back from thanksgiving #1 on tuesday to see where we had ours done.

we had it done bc mh had testicular cancer and i was o'ing fine and hormones were fine and no tube blockage on hsg.

he did have elevated levels of oxidation and fragmentation, but only slightly higher than normal range.

i've thought about this long and hard before doing ivf and since our m/c. to me, it simply comes down to a numbers game.

even if yh numbers are elevated, they can't do testing on the individual sperm just before icsi to see if they are ok. we had great fert rate (9 of 10) and great looking embies and six of nine made it to 5d. but when we put two back in, only one implanted and it stopped living at 8w. 

the other four are frosties and we are putting two back in for our FET in dec. 

i feel like all we can do is hope that one of these remaining embies has good DNA.

i don't know if any of the above helped, but if not just now i know exactly how you feel.

(((HUGS))) and HOPE. 


TTC #1 since 12/2010 DH: MFI, cancer survivor Me: Resected septate uterus, lap treated mild endo, tubes open, ovulate on own. 3 Failed IUI's (2/2012, 4/2012, 6/2012) IVF #1 August 2012. BFP! Beta #1 56.7 Beta #2 150 One baby, one heartbeat on 9/20/12! no h/b @7w6d. dandc @8w0d Praying unceasingly for a miracle. PAIF/SAIF welcome Image and video hosting by TinyPic Image and video hosting by TinyPic Image and video hosting by TinyPic  
11-16-2012 at 2:17 PM
JSM0801
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We just went through SCSA to do the testing, and they are totally legit. That is actually who my clinic uses for dna fragmentation testing. You can order it all on-line, but your dr. does have to sign off on it, and the results get sent to your dr. I am really happy we went through the testing. Some pp say there is no point, because you are going to still go through IVF. But, it is an important piece of the puzzle, and like you said, YH can start taking vitamins, if there is a problem. We are MFI and were expecting the worst, so we were really relieved to get the results, since they were actually pretty good (totally normal in one area and slightly poor in the other by 1.5%). MH has changed medications, which the lady at SCSA believes caused the slightly poor %. The SCSA lady was very nice and answered all my questions regarding the results. I am not sure why this test isn't done more often, especially in MFI cases. It is crazy that people go through multiple rounds of failed IVF's to then be told there is a sperm issue. Unfortunately, normal sperm can have dna issues. Sorry for all your frustrations, but I think you should go for it. If anything, it will help ease your mind. 

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Me (33)- unexplained MH (35)- MFI due to Vericocele. Straight to IVF w/ICSI 9/12, Antagonist = BFN c/p, poor quality blasts, tested sperm dna fragmentation. Results all good, yay! New RE for IVF #2- 1/13., Long Lupron. ER on 1/22 -10R, 9M, 9F. Transfer on hold due to overstimming. FET in Feb. 2 frozen blasts. Another BFN & another c/p. RPL testing all negative besides MTHFR gene, vericocle repair surgery 4/12/13-Bilateral Grade 3 Vericocele found & fixed, IVF #3 with PGS 4/13- 11R, 9M, 9F. Transferred 2 normal=BFN, 3 normal on ice Everyone Welcome!!!
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11-16-2012 at 7:31 PM
Laurakat81
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Joined on 05-29-2008
Louisiana
44,928 Points
Laurakat81 is not online. Last active: 05-18-2013, 4:41 PMGold
Thank you all for your responses. I think I'm even more convinced to go ahead and do the test but I think I'll get my RE to order it or at least see what he suggests. I was mostly trying to avoid DH having to take a day off work and drive the three hours to the clinic. But I guess it's better to make sure before I take matters in my own hands, I'd hate to have to do it twice!

This is all so frustrating though. I know y'all understand! Thanks again!

11-17-2012 at 9:22 PM
DahliaFlow...
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DahliaFlower is not online. Last active: 05-17-2013, 6:12 PMNewbie
Mrs.McIrish:

We just shipped off DH's sperm off to the lab yesterday. I intended to use SCSA but then the urologist that initially did DH's SA said to call Reprosource.  I was able to get an order from from my RE for them so that is what we did. Not sure if there is a big  difference between SCSA and Reprosource. Both are testing the DNA frag so I went with it. 

For us, we are doing it to decide if we are pulling the pull or doing one final DE cycle. DH's SAs have always been very good so it was never suggested to us either. I have no doubt that my eggs are crap but I was blindsided that we did not get a single good blast out of 7 donor eggs. I have concerns that the clinic messed up the donor cycle(donor ended up hospitalized with severe OHSS and other factors I won't get into). If the frag comes back high, we aren't going to risk the money for another DE cycle. I have heard that vitamins worked for some and not others. ICSI does not fix the problem so I disagree about why some REs don't bother with the test as it doesn't change course of action(ie just IcSI).  For us, it will be what we base our decision on for stopping(DH is not open to donor sperm) 

 

We also just sent to Reprosource.  According to some of the hot shot RE's, this is the best lab for any type of RE related testing.   


TTC #1 12/2009 BFP #1 1/2010, M/C 6 weeks;
BFP #2 6/2010, DD lost to congenital heart disease, we are heartbroken.
TTC #2 4/2011, Diagnosed MTHFR homo, FVL hetero; Four natural cycles BFN;
8/2011 Hysteroscopy, small septum; Acupuncture; Clomid IUI BFN; Follistim IUI BFN;
1/2012 IVF #1 BFN; 4/2012 FET BFP #3!
5/2012 7w1d u/s: anembryonic demise; M/C @8w.
Laparoscopy 6/2012 found Stage II/III endo, removed w/ laser.
8/2012 IVF #2 epic fail: no viable embryos.
Vacation, break, second opinions, new RE.
1/2013 Surprise chemical pregnancy (break cycle), IVF#3 postponed
2/2013 TI w/ hormonal support, prednisone, aspirin, Lovenox, acupuncture
gave us a miracle BFP!
Heartbeat on U/S at 6w1d! Baby, please stay!! Lilypie Angel and Memorial tickers  BabyFetus Ticker 
11-18-2012 at 7:17 PM
justplanel...
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justplanelove is not online. Last active: 05-18-2013, 12:01 PMBronze

Thought I would throw my 2 cents worth out there...

I looked into it as well & from some independent sources, I decided not to pursue the test because what it boiled down to was that they found the test to give the fragmentation of the sample that they were testing, but the test didn't predict the outcome of future samples, meaning that each sample yielded different results. (I hope that makes sense) 

I had a similar situation in that I had 6 embryos fertilized that started fragmenting on day 3 & by day 5, I only had 3. We transferred 2 blasts & on day 6, the last one arrested development. Although I was textbook on my response, my doctor mentioned that while the Lupron down regulation is the "best fit" for most people, that Menopur-like drugs may have an adverse affect on egg quality which may account for fragmentation. Her suggestion was to use more FSH drugs in any subsequent IVF cycles.

I don't know if any of that information helps, but I thought I might pass it along anyway. Good luck! 


S/PAIF Welcome

TTC since September 2010 with unexplained IF, Prothrombin G20210A mutation
Our miracle baby will arrive in June through Adoption
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I waited patiently & expectantly for the Lord and He heard my cry Psalm 40:1
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