I just want to chime in and say that not all crunchy mommas are like this.

OK, I feel better now.

You can confront her if you want, but I doubt it will change her mind.  You could also call CPS because malnourishing your kid on purpose is abuse IMO. 

She can't wait another week for ingredients to arrive for some homemade concoction. That's neglect and child services could take her away for that. Especially since all of this would/should have been detected long ago through regular visits at a pediatrician (she could have found a naturalist who would still  do height/weight checks and ensure everything is growing properly). I would be blunt with her and tell her that she can't wait and warn her that all of this could be considered neglect and she could lose her child over it.

I'm fairly natural and try to stick with whole ingredients and such, but formula is one place that you shouldn't do that because formula is strictly regulated by the FDA to have what babies need. And waiting a week to help your starving child because of fear of formula is not healthy.

Good luck to your friend. I hope she takes better care of her daughter in the future. She needs to find a ped who is a DO instead  of (or in addition to) an MD  and will work with her on treating things naturally but will still ensure her child gets proper care, which she isn't right now.

I would tell her as nicely as possible to feed the child formula or goat milk.  Word it VERY delicately.  Maybe along the lines of "please don't get upset at me for what i am about to say, i love you like a sister and i love Jenna very much too.  Something inside of me wants to tell you that maybe you should consider feeding her formula or goat milk until the ingredients come in, but I don't want you to be upset with me.  I know you are going through a lot right now, but coming from someone who loves you very much, I want what is best for Jenna too.  Please try and reconsider your position re: formula or goat milk.  It is really not all that bad plus it will only be for about a week."

I would keep it simple and not push the situation.  In the end, she's going to do WHATEVER she wants but at least you voiced your concerns.

 Good luck!

I think you have to say something. You love that little girl like she is your niece, then you need to show how much you love her by speaking up for her. A weeks a long time to go without the nutrients you need to be strong and healthy. You dont need to be mean to your friend, but you need to be honest and tell her its selfish to keep her daughter unhealthy for another week.

I'm kind of torn.

I'm not a crunchy mama, but my youngest was only 17lbs at 1 year old and despite over supply issues, I could never pump more than half an ounce at a time. There's a difference between malnourishment and low-weight. If the little girl is meeting her milestones and developing at a normal rate, I'd lean more toward thinking she's just a lower weight due to genetics and only partly related to the raw diet (chances are, if momma's on a low-fat diet, her milk doesn't have as much fat as "normal" either, but the body pulls what it needs).

Honestly, when a doctor chewed me out for my youngest being underweight, I immediately sought a second opinion because I felt there was nothing wrong with her. Second doctor had no concerns and sure enough, other than some anemia (put her on vitamin drops and that was fixed 3 months later), my daughter was healthy.

Not sure what to do with your friend, but I would actually question what the doctor is saying, especially if he doesn't see the child often enough to have her growth chart to compare to. 

I'm sorry, but starving your child for the sake of being "organic" or whatever is being a bad mom. It is being neglectful and abusive. "Just" one more week when it comes to feeding an already ill child could kill them. I'd slap her and call CPS.

Well I've tried to say something. Even told her about a local farm that sells the goat milk. I haven't heard anything back yet. Unfortunately, she's posted the situation on Facebook and EVERYONE else is giving her the complete opposite advice. They're saying that Jenna is fine, just small, it's just genetics. That her milk has everything Jenna needs, and that the "averages" on the charts at the doc are given by the formula companies who just want more profits (WTF?????). My doula commented that she can give her tips on how to get her supply up. And a bunch of moms are saying "Oh all my kids were small and they're fine now!"

While I'm glad that Beth's nerves are being calmed, I feel like all of this white noise makes it impossible for anything I say to be heard. I've tried, but I honestly don't think that it's going to go anywhere when she's got a few dozen women telling her everything is fine.

I'm just so frustrated. 

SarahRae85:

I'm kind of torn.

I'm not a crunchy mama, but my youngest was only 17lbs at 1 year old and despite over supply issues, I could never pump more than half an ounce at a time. There's a difference between malnourishment and low-weight. If the little girl is meeting her milestones and developing at a normal rate, I'd lean more toward thinking she's just a lower weight due to genetics and only partly related to the raw diet (chances are, if momma's on a low-fat diet, her milk doesn't have as much fat as "normal" either, but the body pulls what it needs).

Honestly, when a doctor chewed me out for my youngest being underweight, I immediately sought a second opinion because I felt there was nothing wrong with her. Second doctor had no concerns and sure enough, other than some anemia (put her on vitamin drops and that was fixed 3 months later), my daughter was healthy.

Not sure what to do with your friend, but I would actually question what the doctor is saying, especially if he doesn't see the child often enough to have her growth chart to compare to. 

 

This is another reason I was wondering if I should say anything. I know that the pump doesn't always get everything (which is what someone also posted on her FB). And Beth said that Jenna was meeting the milestones for her age at a playdate on Tuesday.  She was comparing Jenna to another friend's baby who was born within 4 days of Jenna, and he's 25 pounds, crawling, and walking with a push walker. Jenna hates being on her stomach, and has made no attempt to crawl, though does push herself backwards sometimes.

Beth said she's constantly stalking the milestones, because she was worried Jenna wasn't crawling, and that she's meeting all of them. So there's the possibility that Jenna IS just small, since Beth is. But if I were in her situation, I'd be hopping on the formula truck until I could confirm that she's fine. Or even breastfeed and just supplement with formula to ease my own mind. I'd never just wait out the week.  

faithfaery:

 

This is another reason I was wondering if I should say anything. I know that the pump doesn't always get everything (which is what someone also posted on her FB). And Beth said that Jenna was meeting the milestones for her age at a playdate on Tuesday.  She was comparing Jenna to another friend's baby who was born within 4 days of Jenna, and he's 25 pounds, crawling, and walking with a push walker. Jenna hates being on her stomach, and has made no attempt to crawl, though does push herself backwards sometimes.

Beth said she's constantly stalking the milestones, because she was worried Jenna wasn't crawling, and that she's meeting all of them. So there's the possibility that Jenna IS just small, since Beth is. But if I were in her situation, I'd be hopping on the formula truck until I could confirm that she's fine. Or even breastfeed and just supplement with formula to ease my own mind. I'd never just wait out the week.  

Hmm... not crawling at 10 months isn't entirely unusual, but combined with the low weight it is possible there is something wrong. When I said my daughter was meeting her milestones, I mean she was walking at 11 months, sleeping well, and actually advanced for her age in other areas.

My sister, who did have malnourishment issues with her oldest, commented that her daughter met her milestones on time, but they were clumsy.

And in all fairness, when the doctor did chew me out about my daughter being underweight, while I ignored most of what she said until seeing another pediatrician, I did stop restricting snacks and look into high-fat but healthy options to offer until I could get her in again, just in case.

15lbs doesn't seem too small to me for 10 mo. My DD was 18lbs at a year, so I have no idea what 10 mo was, but 15lbs does scream she is going to die. Also I never could get more than a few drops on the pump after awhile. If she is so against formula tell her to take fenugreek, eat a ton of calories, and nurse around the clock to see if her supply goes up. Also tell her that home made formula is just wrong, if push comes to shove she needs to supplement with regulated formula.

botanicalbliss:

I just want to chime in and say that not all crunchy mommas are like this.

OK, I feel better now.

You can confront her if you want, but I doubt it will change her mind.  You could also call CPS because malnourishing your kid on purpose is abuse IMO. 

 

^^^ THIS!! 

I saw a story on the news about a year back about a vegan couple that was sitting in jail because their infant DIED of malnutrition. They would only feed him whatever vegan stuff they felt they wanted him to have. I say that to say, how do you know the "raw formula" she's planning on using is even nutritionally complete? I know this is your good friend, but really it sounds like child services should be involved. Someone needs to be making sure this child is fed. Im surprised the doctor she took her to didn't call.

First of all, I think its inaccurate to gauge how much breastmilk you are making by how much you are pumping. I have never been able to pump more than an ounce, despite my two kids being very well-nursed and gaining weight on target. I think its more important to see how many wet/dirty diapers the child has.

Also, if this baby is 10 months old, she should be eating baby food, cheerio's, etc by this point, so its not as though she is exclusively breastfed. If I were to give your friend any advice, it would be to call La Leche League or find a lactation consultant to a) see if she does indeed have a milk production problem b) help her find all natural ways to increase her breastmilk. I am surprised that your all natural friend would jump right to formula, even if its homemade.

I'd call or send a text, depending on how that convo went I would seriously consider calling CPS. I couldn't sleep at night otherwise. We are a very crunchy and health conscious household, but rule #1 is to feed the baby. 

SarahRae85:

I'm kind of torn.

I'm not a crunchy mama, but my youngest was only 17lbs at 1 year old and despite over supply issues, I could never pump more than half an ounce at a time. There's a difference between malnourishment and low-weight. If the little girl is meeting her milestones and developing at a normal rate, I'd lean more toward thinking she's just a lower weight due to genetics and only partly related to the raw diet (chances are, if momma's on a low-fat diet, her milk doesn't have as much fat as "normal" either, but the body pulls what it needs).

Honestly, when a doctor chewed me out for my youngest being underweight, I immediately sought a second opinion because I felt there was nothing wrong with her. Second doctor had no concerns and sure enough, other than some anemia (put her on vitamin drops and that was fixed 3 months later), my daughter was healthy.

Not sure what to do with your friend, but I would actually question what the doctor is saying, especially if he doesn't see the child often enough to have her growth chart to compare to. 

Definitely all of this.

Pumping often does not expel the same amount of milk as natural breastfeeding would, so to pump and only get an ounce when you are an EBF isn't a surefire way to see how much your LO is actually getting.

My DS is tall and thin. Though he's over 2 1/2 years old, 2T pants do not fit him whatsoever. Like, ridiculously so; they will literally fall down when we put them on him. Even 24 months can be too big, depending on the brand, and we often have to roll them. However, he does go for wellness check ups and they weigh him/measure him anytime he is at the pedi for an illness. I was concerned about his size, and spoke with his pedi who showed me the growth chart. While he is thin, he has steadily been gaining weight and reaching milestones, which is ultimately what they are looking at. He is thin, yes, but he is certainly not malnourished and the doctor never mentioned that as a possible concern. 

If your friend doesn't take her to wellness checks, then it's hard to determine, from a medical standpoint, if she has been gaining weight but just less frequently or at a slower pace, or if there was a point where her growth has started to decrease. They don't have all the information that they need in this case.  

dande2129:

SarahRae85:

I'm kind of torn.

I'm not a crunchy mama, but my youngest was only 17lbs at 1 year old and despite over supply issues, I could never pump more than half an ounce at a time. There's a difference between malnourishment and low-weight. If the little girl is meeting her milestones and developing at a normal rate, I'd lean more toward thinking she's just a lower weight due to genetics and only partly related to the raw diet (chances are, if momma's on a low-fat diet, her milk doesn't have as much fat as "normal" either, but the body pulls what it needs).

Honestly, when a doctor chewed me out for my youngest being underweight, I immediately sought a second opinion because I felt there was nothing wrong with her. Second doctor had no concerns and sure enough, other than some anemia (put her on vitamin drops and that was fixed 3 months later), my daughter was healthy.

Not sure what to do with your friend, but I would actually question what the doctor is saying, especially if he doesn't see the child often enough to have her growth chart to compare to. 

Definitely all of this.

Pumping often does not expel the same amount of milk as natural breastfeeding would, so to pump and only get an ounce when you are an EBF isn't a surefire way to see how much your LO is actually getting.

My DS is tall and thin. Though he's over 2 1/2 years old, 2T pants do not fit him whatsoever. Like, ridiculously so; they will literally fall down when we put them on him. Even 24 months can be too big, depending on the brand, and we often have to roll them. However, he does go for wellness check ups and they weigh him/measure him anytime he is at the pedi for an illness. I was concerned about his size, and spoke with his pedi who showed me the growth chart. While he is thin, he has steadily been gaining weight and reaching milestones, which is ultimately what they are looking at. He is thin, yes, but he is certainly not malnourished and the doctor never mentioned that as a possible concern. 

If your friend doesn't take her to wellness checks, then it's hard to determine, from a medical standpoint, if she has been gaining weight but just less frequently or at a slower pace, or if there was a point where her growth has started to decrease. They don't have all the information that they need in this case.  

I completely agree with both of these. If her child were malnourished or "starving" she would be screaming her bloody face off. She would be a miserable little girl ESPECIALLY after nursing because she would be getting just a little taste but never be satisfied. Your friend Beth would be able to tell something was wrong by the way her daughter would be acting. My son has always been underweight according to the charts from the dr. but he is a perfectly healthy child and is in fact ahead in everything except for printing in his grade one class as far as development goes. If your her friend and you care about her, if I were you I would try my best to have a good opinion about her, it may seem to you that she is making the wrong choice for her daughter, but the LO may be totally fine. If you see that she is a miserable child and you think the mother is just avoiding it than maybe talk to her, but just because one dr says shes underweight it does not mean that she is malnourished or anything of the sort. My sisters babies have all been very very heavy, 7 mths and 21 lbs., and they were all EBF but if she tries to pump, she gets a few drops. In a case like this I think your best bet always is to just do your best to be what you think is a good friend, if you honestly think the little girl is starving then tell her that gently.

DanandVan:

First of all, I think its inaccurate to gauge how much breastmilk you are making by how much you are pumping. I have never been able to pump more than an ounce, despite my two kids being very well-nursed and gaining weight on target. I think its more important to see how many wet/dirty diapers the child has.

Also, if this baby is 10 months old, she should be eating baby food, cheerio's, etc by this point, so its not as though she is exclusively breastfed. If I were to give your friend any advice, it would be to call La Leche League or find a lactation consultant to a) see if she does indeed have a milk production problem b) help her find all natural ways to increase her breastmilk. I am surprised that your all natural friend would jump right to formula, even if its homemade.

 

I agree with this.  My son was tiny despite my abundant supply.  We helped him maintain his weight, when needed, by giving him lots of foods with good fats (avacados, eggs, etc.).  You can also add butter or olive oil to other types of solid foods to give him/her a boost.  At 10 months, I'm not sure I would make the switch to formula unless it was necessary.  I would add calories with solids and then transition to whole milk as soon as my doctor approved it. 

I think it's waaaaaay over the top to suggest calling CPS.  I'm not condoning "not feeding" your child but that's not necessarily what's happening here.  Some pediatricians are pretty ignorant about breastfeeding and can be very judgmental about "alternative" lifestyles. Beth suspects she might have a low breastmilk supply but as PP's have mentioned, pumping is not an accurate way of gauging this.  If I were her, I would look into another medical opinion to confirm that Jenna's weight really is too low.  As PP's have mentioned, weighing 15 lbs doesn't necessarily indicate malnourishment... Jenna might just be a small child.

As for you, I don't think you should push the issue anymore.  She knows anything you can say anyway.  Of course you feel insulted that she is so appalled at the idea of formula, but try not to personalize it.  As you said, this is a lifestyle choice.  Both of you are just trying to do what's best for your children based on your beliefs.  You can't impose your beliefs on her or vice versa. I think you should let Beth be the judge of what's best for Jenna... your interference is only going to hurt your friendship. 

PepperBug:

DanandVan:

First of all, I think its inaccurate to gauge how much breastmilk you are making by how much you are pumping. I have never been able to pump more than an ounce, despite my two kids being very well-nursed and gaining weight on target. I think its more important to see how many wet/dirty diapers the child has.

Also, if this baby is 10 months old, she should be eating baby food, cheerio's, etc by this point, so its not as though she is exclusively breastfed. If I were to give your friend any advice, it would be to call La Leche League or find a lactation consultant to a) see if she does indeed have a milk production problem b) help her find all natural ways to increase her breastmilk. I am surprised that your all natural friend would jump right to formula, even if its homemade.

THIS...seriously she is not going to feed her at all....I am confused.

I agree with this.  My son was tiny despite my abundant supply.  We helped him maintain his weight, when needed, by giving him lots of foods with good fats (avacados, eggs, etc.).  You can also add butter or olive oil to other types of solid foods to give him/her a boost.  At 10 months, I'm not sure I would make the switch to formula unless it was necessary.  I would add calories with solids and then transition to whole milk as soon as my doctor approved it. 

If she would take her DD with her to a lactation consultant, they can weigh the child before she breastfeeds and then after to find out how many oz. the child is actually consuming during a session.

I also disagree with the child screaming comment about malnutrition.  By 10 months, malnurished children often do not show discomfort because they are so used to the feeling of hunger that they no longer respond.  Unfortunately, many children with chronic pain that begins in infancy do not know they are in pain because it has become their "normal."

I don't have thoughts on the whole situation since I don't really know it. What I do want to say is that what she's able to pump is not an indication of what the baby would get at the breast. A few women are able to pump and get a lot of milk but most of us aren't. I EBF until my daughter was 13 months and no matter when I pumped I would only get 1-2 oz at a time. My daughter was also on the low end of the weight charts but her ped was never concerned because my husband and I are both small people. 

If she'd receive it properly I might talk with her and ask what she thinks the consequences of a week on regular formula will be. Malnourishment is far worse for the developing brain than a perceived "chemical induction" by formula for a week.

I think no matter what you say that she's gonna do whatever she wants to do. But I'd still say something as nicely as possible. Something like "I understand you want to make your own formula and that's great. But waiting another week isn't what's best for Jenna so please reconsider formula or goat milk just until the ingredients come in."

If you're really concerned I'd contact the pediatrician they went to and make them aware of what she's doing or call CPS directly. If the situation is as dire as you're describing then they need to be informed. I don't mind the "crunchy mamas" for the most part, to each their own, but I have issue with parents who think they're doing what's best and continue to do so despite it being pointed out that it's actually harming their children...

When ds1 was 12 months he weighed about 20 pounds -- when I took him in for his 24 month check up his weight had not changed, he was still at about 20 pounds.  I had to bring him in for weekly weight checks for about 2 months until the dr was satisfied that he just wasn't gaining weight. The dr could tell he was not malnourished.  Today at 16, he weighs maybe 120 dripping wet and he's almost 6 feet tall. 

Underweight and malnourished are not the same thing.  It is possible to be overweight and malnourished in this country.

lindseybell3:

I think it's waaaaaay over the top to suggest calling CPS.  I'm not condoning "not feeding" your child but that's not necessarily what's happening here.  Some pediatricians are pretty ignorant about breastfeeding and can be very judgmental about "alternative" lifestyles. Beth suspects she might have a low breastmilk supply but as PP's have mentioned, pumping is not an accurate way of gauging this.  If I were her, I would look into another medical opinion to confirm that Jenna's weight really is too low.  As PP's have mentioned, weighing 15 lbs doesn't necessarily indicate malnourishment... Jenna might just be a small child.

As for you, I don't think you should push the issue anymore.  She knows anything you can say anyway.  Of course you feel insulted that she is so appalled at the idea of formula, but try not to personalize it.  As you said, this is a lifestyle choice.  Both of you are just trying to do what's best for your children based on your beliefs.  You can't impose your beliefs on her or vice versa. I think you should let Beth be the judge of what's best for Jenna... your interference is only going to hurt your friendship. 

This.  It sounds like you already said your piece and by your lifestyle choices she knows how you feel and knows she could ask you any questions if she did want to use formula or regular milk whatever.  She took her child to the doctor, they discovered a problem, and she is planning on fixing it.  I don't understand what more you want from her, obviously this lifestyle is embedded in her and it's one week until the formula materials come.  If the doctor thought neglect was going on they would have called CPS.  The baby is still going to get nourishment from nursing and probably eats finger foods at this point.  It is not at all how I would handle her situation but it's none of my business and none of yours really. 

If the child had been getting regular checkups the problem would have been caught earlier and remedied in a better fashion. There's crunchy and then there is crazy. Letting your kid go hungry is crazy. If money is a problem she should use standard care and forgo expensive organics when traditional contains the same nutrients that would allow her child to grow. A call to CPS would be in order in my opinion. It is everyones buisness when a child is being neglected, even if its non intentional neglect

lindseybell3:

I think it's waaaaaay over the top to suggest calling CPS.  I'm not condoning "not feeding" your child but that's not necessarily what's happening here.  Some pediatricians are pretty ignorant about breastfeeding and can be very judgmental about "alternative" lifestyles. Beth suspects she might have a low breastmilk supply but as PP's have mentioned, pumping is not an accurate way of gauging this.  If I were her, I would look into another medical opinion to confirm that Jenna's weight really is too low.  As PP's have mentioned, weighing 15 lbs doesn't necessarily indicate malnourishment... Jenna might just be a small child.

As for you, I don't think you should push the issue anymore.  She knows anything you can say anyway.  Of course you feel insulted that she is so appalled at the idea of formula, but try not to personalize it.  As you said, this is a lifestyle choice.  Both of you are just trying to do what's best for your children based on your beliefs.  You can't impose your beliefs on her or vice versa. I think you should let Beth be the judge of what's best for Jenna... your interference is only going to hurt your friendship. 

This 100%.  

I have read on TB over and over women saying their doctors are freaking out and getting on to them about not gaining enough weight, even if they were thin pre-pregnancy and have clearly packed on a few pounds. My doctor is a little more laid back, and told me upfront "Most women gain at least 25 pounds, but since you're small, you might not even meet that amount." And it was NBD to her at all. What I'm saying is some doctors are sticklers for "the chart," while others recognize real people in real life are not always so easily guided by stats on a white board. 

Please don't call CPS on your friend. That will demolish your friendship, and turn your friend's life completely on its head - and quite possibly, unnecessarily. It's hard to get CPS UN-involved once they've stepped into a situation... even if the parents are doing everything "right" by their standards. Calling CPS in this situations is probably the WORST thing you could possibly do. I don't care if I get flamed for saying that, either. 

She could go to OnlyTheBreast.com and see if anyone in your area is selling milk that is to her standard. There are people on there that would indicate their diet and if they are milk bank certified. At 10 months she can eat real food too. It takes a while to get into the groove but she should try to get some organic fruit, veggie, meat, anything in the meantime.

I know it will sound harsh but truly she is endangering and could permanently effect her childs health. The damage may already be done, but one more week makes a big difference to such a small body. She is also breaking the law by knowingly withholding nurishment from her child. She is lucky if her doctor doesn't report her, in some states they would not be allowed to let her leave the office with the child.

I have no answers for you but will pray for her child and for her to see reason and seek a better alternative to starving her child for "one more week."

I didn't read the other responses, but first off, you can't "pump to see how much milk you are making".  Baby is often times much more effective than the pump.  I never pumped more than 2.5/3 oz at a time from both breasts combined, but I nursed DS for 19 months with no issues.  A weighted feed at the pedi or LC office is how to see how much they are eating.  At 10 months, baby can eat real food too, so she should just up the fat content in what they are eating. Avacado is a good one to give baby for extra fat.  Depending on baby's height, 15 lbs doesn't seem that small.  My DS is only 25 lbs at age 2!  I'm sure they have been following her kid's weight on a growth chart, but around that age, their growth slows due to extra movement.  I would question if they are using the WHO chart for breastfed babies or the CDC chart for formula babies -- it makes a huge difference!  I doubt she's really going to let her child starve to death by not feeding her for a week.  She should really check out kellymom and the Jack Newman websites about breastfeeding to see ways to increase supply over the next week before throwing in the towel and assuming she doesn't have enough milk.  It's possible what she actually has is a bad pediatrician...you never know.  As long as she's getting breastmilk and food over the next week, she's not going to waste away. She can always look on Eats on Feets or Human Milk for Human Babies and see if she can get some donor milk too to supplement with. I'm sure she has other breastfeeding mommy friends who would donate pumped milk too?